More responses to the Christian claims

 

Responses first:

Dr. Jayson, PhD 

@JS_StrngstSldr

1. Yes, He has a body of flesh and bone. How does that square with John 4:24 — “God is spirit”? This is the Greek: πνεῦμα ὁ θεός, καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν The phrase, often translated, “God is spirit” is in bold. In Greek grammar, this is a qualitative predicate nominative, which deals with, not composition, but one's qualities. Furthermore, a question that is begged is that “spirit” is immaterial. However, many early Christians believed that “spirit” was material (e.g., Origen, On First Principles, Preface 9 and Tertullian, Against Praxaes, 7), something consistent with LDS theology (D&C 131:7). This verse is taking about God's accessibility not His composition. 2. If you read the entire King Follett Discourse, then you would know the Father received a body in the same way as the Son, yet we and you still think the Son is Divine before and after receiving His body. How does that fit Isaiah 43:10 — “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me”? That is Isaiah writing about God in a similar way that other nations would talk about their gods. It is a statement of incomparability. This was a statement against idols not against a plurality of gods which you can find in the Old Testament, Psalms 82. 3. Joseph Smith talked about the Father having a Father, but that's really just a holy mystery. Isaiah 44:6 — “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no God”? Isaiah’s repeated statements (“beside me there is no God,” etc.) assert Yahweh’s absolute supremacy and exclusive claim to Israel’s worship among other real divine beings in a heavenly council (Psalms 82, Job 1, Jer. 23:18, Deut. 32:8-9), rather than denying the existence of any other gods or the possibility of human exaltation. 4. Not only did they exist, but we all existed as Spirit children of Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ created the earth under the direction of Heavenly Father. In your theology, God created Satan exnihilo having a full knowledge that Satan would rebel against Him and receive eternal torment. 5. No. The idea of creatio exnihilo didn't come about until the late second century AD. Genesis 1:1, this is an introductory clause and many Bible scholars agree it should read , When Good began to create the heaven and the earth. Hebrews 11:3 κατηρτισθαι means to fashion or to order. (Benjamin Rojas Yauri, Hebrews’ Cosmogonic Presuppositions: Its First-Century Philosophical Context). 6. John says that we can become the sons of God. John 1:12, 1 John 1:1-2. I've already answered the Isaiah 44 issue, but even Paul in Acts 19:29 says we are the same race, genos, as God. Peter says we can partake in the divine nature. Paul focuses on deification immensely in his writings: Romans 8:17 — Co-heirs who co-suffer and co-glorify with Christ (kinship and shared rule). Romans 8:32 — Heirs of "all things" (cosmic rule/power). 1 Corinthians 6:2–3 — Saints judging the world and angels (eschatological lordship/rule). Galatians 2:19–20 — "Christ lives in me" and co-crucifixion (union/identification). Romans 6:1–11 — Dying and rising with Christ (participation in his acts). Other supporting texts: Rom 8:15–16 (sonship), 1 Cor 15:22, 49 (as above), 2 Cor 4:16–17, Phil 2:6–11 (Christ's divine status), etc. 7. Yes, this is most plain in that there were no more 12 Apostles after John leaves and how none of the Creedal churches can produce new scripture. Matt 16:18 is talking about the ekklesia, which would be understood my Jews as the assembly or gathering of people. Christ has the keys of death and hell. This 8. The Bible isn't infallible, but it is reliable, especially depending on the strength of the translation. 2 Timothy 3:16 is basically saying Scripture is given by inspiration, this applies to the Book of Mormon. 9. Faith is a verb in koine Greek. How can you have faith without action? 10. Did Christ gain a body?

Now the questions:

T.A.R.S. 

@TARSRel0aded

Mormons. LDS followers. Step right up and answer these questions. If you do so honestly, we might make some progress on why we can’t call you Christian: Does God the Father have a physical body of flesh and bones? (D&C 130:22) How does that square with John 4:24 — “God is spirit”? 2. Was God the Father once a man who progressed to godhood? (King Follett Discourse) How does that fit Isaiah 43:10 — “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me”? 3. Are there many gods in existence, with Heavenly Father having his own Father? How does this align with Isaiah 44:6 — “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no God”? 4. Did Jesus and Lucifer (Satan) exist as spirit brothers in a premortal life? How does that reconcile with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, where Jesus created all things? 5. Does the Bible teach creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), or did God organize eternal matter? How do you read Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 11:3? 6. Can faithful humans be exalted to become gods, create worlds, and have spirit children? Doesn’t Isaiah 43:10 and 44:8 say there is no God formed before or after Him? 7. Is the historic Christian Church (post-apostles) in total apostasy, requiring Joseph Smith’s restoration? How does that fit Matthew 16:18 — “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”? 8. Is the Bible the infallible Word of God, or only true “as far as it is translated correctly”? (8th Article of Faith) What does 2 Timothy 3:16 say about Scripture? 9. Is salvation by grace “after all we can do”? (2 Nephi 25:23) How does this match Ephesians 2:8-9 — “not a result of works”? 10. Is God eternally unchanging, or did He progress from man to God? (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17) If He progressed, how is He the same “yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8)?

More responses:

Knowing Joseph Smith the Prophet

@KnowingJoseph

1- you are also a spirit. When your spirit leaves your body, your family will bury your body.

2- "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

3- Check 1 Cor 8:5, "gods many and lords many but to us there is one", and its Jesus.

4- This is all over in the ancient documents in the worlds oldest religions. It's that all derive from one ancient tradition...everywhere. Both Jesus and Satan and you and I lived before we were born and our lives are a product of our choices there. "before thou wast formed in the belly, I knew thee and ordained thee a prophet to the nations," said the Lord to Jeremiah. The ancient tradition, episodes 24-26 say a lot about the theme of the two brothers. Its fascinating.

5- Look at the meaning of the Hebrew בָּרָא. It literally means to "shape." The greek philosophers introduced creation out of nothing, but the Hebrews used בָּרָא to explain things like making an arrow out of a stick, they saw God forming an apple on a tree and used בָּרָא to explain how that happened (Isaiah 57:19) and the "smith that bloweth coals in the fire was also "created" by God in the same way as the apple grew on the tree = בָּרָא and that is in Isaiah 54:16. 1 Sam 2:29 uses בָּרָא to talk about the people making themselves "fat" off the offerings of the temple...did the offerings come from nothing? Clearly not. This is בָּרָא.

6- The Hebrew use of the word that describes how these "gods" are made is יָצַר or yāṣar and it specifically refers to idols that are made by men -- "no god formed" yasar is the "form" word. It refers to the way that potters arrange clay to make idols. It is not talking about "beings," nor about the children of God. It's talking about idols made by the hands of men as a potter arranges clay. If you insist that that's not the meaning, what the Hebrew means by "before me" is the meaning "greater than me." It's not an exclusionary phrase is a comparative phrase that means no god was formed to be greater than Christ or Jehovah, for "beside Him, there is no Savior," or goel or redeemer, or kinsman. Good stuff here.

7- The gates of hell are not prevailing against us. We are building temples all over the earth. Fulfilling the statements made by prophets in the 1800s who said that "temples would dot the earth." This is being fulfilled before my eyes and yours.

8- Both men and the Bible are fallible. There are errors in the translations. I just read in 1 Sam 1 the KJV says that Hannah's husband gave her a "double" portion but the Hebrew word is the the word for "one." There is no word for double in that verse. I can see what the translators were doing, but it doesn't fit the Hebrew. Nor does the Hebrew and the greek septuigant mix very well. If you're going to post questions like this, you need to be going to the original sources to know what you're talking about. You'll find that the original Hebrew doesn't mix with the influence of greek philosophy that is all over the creeds.

9 - We can't pay for salvation, can't pay a fraction. Jesus paid all. But salvation is of faith is it not? Because whatsoever is not of faith is sin - Romans 14:23. And faith without works is dead, so must we not bring forth works of faith in righteousness? Romans 10:6. Salvation is free in the sense that we can't pay for it, Jesus pays all, but with us all as in the case of Abraham, the Lord requires that we do what he says. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Keep reading that chapter if you need more...we are expected by the Lord to build solid houses of faith by our works to do what He requires of us, just like Abraham did. This doctrine is everywhere in the OT, NT, and BoM. everywhere.

10- I am the Lord, I change not. But men on the earth change like the weather. The statement was made to mortals who live in a mortal world. It was not made as a comprehensive statement that includes all the eternities that ever existed. Jesus himself grew from grace to grace. You can too, but you have to open your mind to these things. I know for myself that Jesus is the Lord, the God of our salvation sent here by His Father to conquer satan that we might be saved from our sins. I know that He lives. I am certain of this. I also know that He will compel no man to believe in His restored Church that has born his name from the beginning. Know this, that ev’ry soul is free To choose his life and what he’ll be; For this eternal truth is giv’n: That God will force no man to heav’n. He’ll call, persuade, direct aright, And bless with wisdom, love, and light, In nameless ways be good and kind, But never force the human mind.

"Christian" circular reasoning

 

LEGO Joseph Smith

@Mormonger

The problem with your argument is that you simply assume the very thing you're trying to prove. You define "Christian" as "someone who accepts the Nicene Creed, post-apostolic tradition, and your particular understanding of the Trinity." Then you point out that Latter-day Saints don't accept those things and conclude they aren't Christian. That's not an argument. That's circular reasoning. The apostles never recited the Nicene Creed. Peter never taught *homoousios*. Paul never told converts they had to affirm fourth-century metaphysical definitions before they could be called Christians. What did they preach? Faith in Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God, His atoning death, His resurrection, repentance, baptism, and discipleship. Latter-day Saints affirm every one of those things. You say Christianity is the faith of the "One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." Fine. Now demonstrate from Scripture that this institution could never fall into apostasy, corruption, doctrinal confusion, or loss of authority. Because the New Testament repeatedly warns about exactly those dangers. You appeal to tradition. Latter-day Saints appeal to prophets and revelation. The real question is whether God still speaks. If He does, your argument collapses. You say LDS theology teaches a "different God." Yet the New Testament consistently depicts the Father and Son as distinct persons. Jesus prays to the Father. The Father speaks to the Son. Stephen sees Jesus standing at the right hand of God. The text says what it says. What's actually happening here is that you've elevated later creedal interpretations above the plain biblical text and then declared anyone who disagrees "not Christian." And let's be honest: if acceptance of fourth-century councils is what makes someone Christian, then Christianity isn't being defined by Christ and His apostles. It's being defined by bishops centuries later. Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We pray in His name. We trust in His atonement. We follow His teachings. We covenant to take His name upon us. You are free to argue that our theology is wrong. What you are not free to do is redefine Christianity so narrowly that devotion to Jesus Christ suddenly becomes irrelevant while allegiance to post-biblical creeds becomes the determining factor.

Jacqi Rose 

@TexasRose1836

Sorry not sorry, but Mormons (LDS) are not Christians. I know that stings some folks, but truth matters more than feelings. Christianity is the faith of the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Christ and His Apostles preserved through Holy Tradition, the Nicene Creed, the real presence in the Eucharist, and the Trinity as understood from the beginning. LDS theology teaches a different God (a progression of gods, not the eternal Trinity), adds new scriptures that contradict the Bible and early Church, and follows a whole different path of salvation. That’s not a “restoration” or another denomination. It’s another religion with Christian-sounding language. The Church isn’t a buffet. It’s the Hospital for our souls, and it has clear boundaries set by the Apostles and the Saints. Let’s love people enough to tell them the truth instead of playing nice with confusion. Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, not one option among many.

Jacqi Rose 

@TexasRose1836

Orthodox Christianity stands on 2,000+ years of unbroken, verified history. From the Apostles in the Upper Room, through the early Church Fathers, the Ecumenical Councils, the blood of martyrs, the golden domes of Byzantium, right down to the incense-filled Divine Liturgy we attend today, it’s all real, documented, and alive. You can walk the same paths the saints walked, read the same Scriptures they preserved, and touch the same holy Tradition handed down generation after generation. No gaps. No reinventions. Just the Church Christ founded. Now look at Joseph Smith. This 19th-century con man claimed an angel handed him “ancient golden tablets” written in “reformed Egyptian” that conveniently disappeared the moment he was done “translating” them. No archaeological evidence. No historical records. No witnesses who could back it up under real scrutiny. Just a tall tale from a treasure-digging occultist who made it all up to fit his new religion. You can verify with your own eyes, it’s fiction dressed up as revelation. I’ll stand with the saints, the martyrs, and the Holy Orthodox Church any day. The gates of Hades have not prevailed against Her… and they never will.

Brigham's Burner

@FiredUpCoug

When you say I have to accept “the Nicene Creed” to be Christian, could you be more specific? Do you mean the creed produced in A.D. 325 at a council convened by the Roman emperor Constantine, who was trying to settle the Arian controversy and preserve unity in his empire? Or do you mean the version most Christians actually recite today, which comes from A.D. 381, when another Roman emperor, Theodosius I, convened the First Council of Constantinople to settle further disputes and more fully define the doctrine of the Holy Spirit? Because that seems like a pretty important distinction. One was created under Constantine, a Roman emperor with no priesthood authority, whose interest in Christianity was inseparable from his interest in imperial stability. The other was expanded under Theodosius, another Roman emperor who used state power to enforce religious uniformity. And somehow I’m supposed to believe that my faith in Jesus Christ is invalid unless I accept the theological conclusions of emperor-sponsored councils held centuries after Christ and His apostles? You are free to trust those councils, led by rulers of the same empire that crucified Christ. But please stop pretending that your post-biblical, politically entangled, imperial committee language is simply “biblical truth.” And stop acting like you have the authority to decide who is and is not Christian based on a person’s willingness to pledge allegiance to Rome’s preferred definition of the Divine.

Gail Finke

@gailfinke

The “Nicene Creed” is what the “Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed” is commonly called (not in attempt to obfuscate, as you seem to be implying, but for the obvious reason that it’s much shorter). And yes, this is the creed of orthodox Christianity and (with one disagreement) of the Orthodox Churches. You may not like that it is the measure of what is Christian and what is not, but it is and has been for almost 1700 years. And while LDS teachings are like Arianism in some ways, I’m sure you agree the LDS Church is not at all the same as Arianism. So what is it that you would like to claim?

Grok

@grok

·

9h

The Nicene conclusions about Christ being "very God of very God" and "of one substance with the Father" are not found in Jesus' words. His teachings instead stress: "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) "my Father is greater than I." (John 14:28) "I can of mine own self do nothing... I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30) These show distinction and the Father's greater authority, creating direct tension with the Creed's co-equal essence claim developed centuries later.