Patterns of Personal Apostasy

 

Dustin Harding  awakendaysaint

@dustinharding

“Patterns of Personal Apostasy” - President Oaks 1. Focusing on past prophets rather than living—“They who garnish the sepulchers of the dead prophets begin now by stoning the living ones. They return to the pronouncements of the dead leaders and interpret them to be incompatible with present programs” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball [1982], 462). 2. Contending that current religious leaders are not in harmony with the latest discoveries of science or other scholarship or political correctness. 3. Proposing one’s own special learning or position as a substitute for prophetic leadership. Persisting in teaching subjects on which the Lord has not chosen to give more revelation at this time. 4. Proposing one’s own special learning or position as a substitute for prophetic leadership. 5. Persisting in teaching subjects on which the Lord has not chosen to give more revelation at this time. - GENERAL CONFERENCE LEADERSHIP MEETING—APRIL 2024

History of the Trinity

 

Clint Teeples

@TeeplesCY

"You aren't a Christian if you don't accept the Trinity." The history of that statement is quite shocking, and almost nobody who says it knows that acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity was once enforced by exile, fire, and death. Here is what happened. For the first 300 years after Jesus, Christians did not agree on how He related to God the Father. They argued about it constantly. There was no official rule. That was just normal. Then a priest named Arius said the Son came from the Father and was beneath Him. Not equal. Not eternal. A lot of Christians agreed with him. A lot. This was not some fringe group. For stretches of the next century, his side was winning. Other Christians said the opposite. The Son was fully God, equal to the Father, no beginning. Two camps, same Bible, opposite conclusions. The fighting got bad. Riots. Mobs in the streets. Christians brawling over the nature of God. So the Roman emperor stepped in. Constantine. He had just won a civil war and he wanted his empire to stop fighting. He was not even baptized. He did not care about the theology. He cared about order. In the year 325 he called the bishops to a town called Nicaea. He paid for it. He ran the meeting himself. And they voted. They ruled that the Son was equal to the Father, fully God, one substance with Him. That ruling is the core of the Trinity. It got settled in that room, by that vote, on one word that is not even in the Bible. They wrote the ruling into an official statement of belief. A creed. Every bishop was expected to sign it. That is the part people think is the story. It isn't. The shocking part is how they made everyone accept it. Constantine made the bishops sign the creed. The few who refused, he banished. Then he ordered every book Arius ever wrote to be burned. Then he made a law. If you were caught hiding one of those books, you were put to death. Even after all of that, the Trinity did not win for good. A few years later Constantine changed his mind. He brought Arius back. And he exiled Athanasius, the bishop who had won the argument at Nicaea. That man got banished five separate times in his life for believing the thing the church now says you have to believe. For the next fifty years it flipped back and forth. One emperor said Trinity. The next said no. Whoever sat on the throne decided what was true. The official belief about God changed every time power changed hands. It finally got locked in by another emperor named Theodosius. He made the Trinity the law of the empire. Disagree, and you were a heretic. Not in some spiritual sense. By law. Backed by soldiers. A few years after that, the empire executed a bishop for his beliefs. The first time the state put a Christian to death over doctrine. It would not be the last. Then came the document that says it out loud. A creed written around the year 500. Almost five centuries after Jesus. They named it after Athanasius, that same bishop. He did not even write it. They put his name on it for the authority. It opens by declaring that anyone who does not hold the Trinity, whole and complete, will perish forever. Believe it or be damned. Put in writing, and made the test of who gets saved. So that is where the line comes from. Not from Jesus. Not from the apostles. From emperors and councils who needed a divided empire to fall in line. The Trinity did not become the rule because the argument was settled. It became the rule because the side that held it had the throne, the law, and the sword. The next time someone says you aren't a Christian unless you accept the Trinity, remember what it took to make that rule stick. Exile. Fire. And death.

J. Whitebread

@JWhitebread1

·

8h

"In the year 325 he called the bishops to a town called Nicaea. He paid for it. He ran the meeting himself. And they voted. They ruled that the Son was equal to the Father, fully God, one substance with Him. That ruling is the core of the Trinity. It got settled in that room, by that vote, on one word that is not even in the Bible." There is some nuance here that needs explaining. He organized it, but he didn't even show up for the first several sessions and only came in at the end and the bishops were hardly pushovers. By his letters recorded by Eusebius of Caesarea, he was attempting a third way, a kind of live and let live policy, but that failed and forced his hand to choose one or the other. I don't think he relished the choice, honestly. Another Eusebius, (I know it's confusing) was a close advisor to Constantine and had Constantine give a full hearing to Arius. Then things get complicated and the record gets hard to parse because we have some bishops who have sympathy with some of Arius's thoughts, but not all, and some who objected to Arius's demotion of Christ's divinity, but also objected to the interjection of Athanasius's "homoousian" formula. We call these the "quasi-Arians" and it is they who hold sway with Constantine and his dynasty for another 50 years when Athanasius was in exile. In the end, the second Eusebius signed on to the creed, as did many others, but it's unclear if they agreed with what later councils clarified the creed to mean, which only happend in the Creed of Constantinople in 381 under Theodosius who was a completely different dynasty. So quasi-Arians and homoousian trinitarians co-existed, and not really peacefully, for the next 50 or so years, with the quasi-Arians dominating most of the Eastern half of the empire, which was the most populous and the majority, and the opposition in the West and N. Africa. Bottom line: Nicaea accomplished jack squat. It didn't produce harmony in the empire and didn't settle anything and only caused more confusion. Violence continued but was sporadic and localized. The real purges begin after Theodosius. Oh, and pagans were still a thing at this time and large chunks of the Senate were still pagan patrician families with lots of influence. Late Antiquity! It's a helluva show!

why i oughta...

@_whyioughta

·

5h

This confuses coercion with doctrine. Nobody has to defend emperors to defend the Trinity. John 1, Colossians 1, Hebrews 1, John 20, Matthew 28, and 2 Corinthians 13 already give you the raw material: one God, the Son fully divine, the Spirit divine, and Father/Son/Spirit named together. Ignatius, Justin, Irenaeus, and Tertullian show this was pre-Nicene Christian belief, not a fourth-century invention. Also, Mormons probably shouldn’t use “changed under political pressure” as an argument. Plural marriage was taught as revelation and then publicly ended under U.S. pressure.

Tim Rodocker

@TimRodocker

·

5h

It’s not creeds or trinities. It’s just as simple as, the extra book. Having a different book makes a different religion. It’s what keeps a Jew a Jew, a Muslim a Muslim, a Christian a Christian, and a Mormon a Mormon.

More responses to the Christian claims

 

Responses first:

Dr. Jayson, PhD 

@JS_StrngstSldr

1. Yes, He has a body of flesh and bone. How does that square with John 4:24 — “God is spirit”? This is the Greek: πνεῦμα ὁ θεός, καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν The phrase, often translated, “God is spirit” is in bold. In Greek grammar, this is a qualitative predicate nominative, which deals with, not composition, but one's qualities. Furthermore, a question that is begged is that “spirit” is immaterial. However, many early Christians believed that “spirit” was material (e.g., Origen, On First Principles, Preface 9 and Tertullian, Against Praxaes, 7), something consistent with LDS theology (D&C 131:7). This verse is taking about God's accessibility not His composition. 2. If you read the entire King Follett Discourse, then you would know the Father received a body in the same way as the Son, yet we and you still think the Son is Divine before and after receiving His body. How does that fit Isaiah 43:10 — “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me”? That is Isaiah writing about God in a similar way that other nations would talk about their gods. It is a statement of incomparability. This was a statement against idols not against a plurality of gods which you can find in the Old Testament, Psalms 82. 3. Joseph Smith talked about the Father having a Father, but that's really just a holy mystery. Isaiah 44:6 — “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no God”? Isaiah’s repeated statements (“beside me there is no God,” etc.) assert Yahweh’s absolute supremacy and exclusive claim to Israel’s worship among other real divine beings in a heavenly council (Psalms 82, Job 1, Jer. 23:18, Deut. 32:8-9), rather than denying the existence of any other gods or the possibility of human exaltation. 4. Not only did they exist, but we all existed as Spirit children of Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ created the earth under the direction of Heavenly Father. In your theology, God created Satan exnihilo having a full knowledge that Satan would rebel against Him and receive eternal torment. 5. No. The idea of creatio exnihilo didn't come about until the late second century AD. Genesis 1:1, this is an introductory clause and many Bible scholars agree it should read , When Good began to create the heaven and the earth. Hebrews 11:3 κατηρτισθαι means to fashion or to order. (Benjamin Rojas Yauri, Hebrews’ Cosmogonic Presuppositions: Its First-Century Philosophical Context). 6. John says that we can become the sons of God. John 1:12, 1 John 1:1-2. I've already answered the Isaiah 44 issue, but even Paul in Acts 19:29 says we are the same race, genos, as God. Peter says we can partake in the divine nature. Paul focuses on deification immensely in his writings: Romans 8:17 — Co-heirs who co-suffer and co-glorify with Christ (kinship and shared rule). Romans 8:32 — Heirs of "all things" (cosmic rule/power). 1 Corinthians 6:2–3 — Saints judging the world and angels (eschatological lordship/rule). Galatians 2:19–20 — "Christ lives in me" and co-crucifixion (union/identification). Romans 6:1–11 — Dying and rising with Christ (participation in his acts). Other supporting texts: Rom 8:15–16 (sonship), 1 Cor 15:22, 49 (as above), 2 Cor 4:16–17, Phil 2:6–11 (Christ's divine status), etc. 7. Yes, this is most plain in that there were no more 12 Apostles after John leaves and how none of the Creedal churches can produce new scripture. Matt 16:18 is talking about the ekklesia, which would be understood my Jews as the assembly or gathering of people. Christ has the keys of death and hell. This 8. The Bible isn't infallible, but it is reliable, especially depending on the strength of the translation. 2 Timothy 3:16 is basically saying Scripture is given by inspiration, this applies to the Book of Mormon. 9. Faith is a verb in koine Greek. How can you have faith without action? 10. Did Christ gain a body?

Now the questions:

T.A.R.S. 

@TARSRel0aded

Mormons. LDS followers. Step right up and answer these questions. If you do so honestly, we might make some progress on why we can’t call you Christian: Does God the Father have a physical body of flesh and bones? (D&C 130:22) How does that square with John 4:24 — “God is spirit”? 2. Was God the Father once a man who progressed to godhood? (King Follett Discourse) How does that fit Isaiah 43:10 — “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me”? 3. Are there many gods in existence, with Heavenly Father having his own Father? How does this align with Isaiah 44:6 — “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no God”? 4. Did Jesus and Lucifer (Satan) exist as spirit brothers in a premortal life? How does that reconcile with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, where Jesus created all things? 5. Does the Bible teach creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), or did God organize eternal matter? How do you read Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 11:3? 6. Can faithful humans be exalted to become gods, create worlds, and have spirit children? Doesn’t Isaiah 43:10 and 44:8 say there is no God formed before or after Him? 7. Is the historic Christian Church (post-apostles) in total apostasy, requiring Joseph Smith’s restoration? How does that fit Matthew 16:18 — “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”? 8. Is the Bible the infallible Word of God, or only true “as far as it is translated correctly”? (8th Article of Faith) What does 2 Timothy 3:16 say about Scripture? 9. Is salvation by grace “after all we can do”? (2 Nephi 25:23) How does this match Ephesians 2:8-9 — “not a result of works”? 10. Is God eternally unchanging, or did He progress from man to God? (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17) If He progressed, how is He the same “yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8)?

More responses:

Knowing Joseph Smith the Prophet

@KnowingJoseph

1- you are also a spirit. When your spirit leaves your body, your family will bury your body.

2- "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

3- Check 1 Cor 8:5, "gods many and lords many but to us there is one", and its Jesus.

4- This is all over in the ancient documents in the worlds oldest religions. It's that all derive from one ancient tradition...everywhere. Both Jesus and Satan and you and I lived before we were born and our lives are a product of our choices there. "before thou wast formed in the belly, I knew thee and ordained thee a prophet to the nations," said the Lord to Jeremiah. The ancient tradition, episodes 24-26 say a lot about the theme of the two brothers. Its fascinating.

5- Look at the meaning of the Hebrew בָּרָא. It literally means to "shape." The greek philosophers introduced creation out of nothing, but the Hebrews used בָּרָא to explain things like making an arrow out of a stick, they saw God forming an apple on a tree and used בָּרָא to explain how that happened (Isaiah 57:19) and the "smith that bloweth coals in the fire was also "created" by God in the same way as the apple grew on the tree = בָּרָא and that is in Isaiah 54:16. 1 Sam 2:29 uses בָּרָא to talk about the people making themselves "fat" off the offerings of the temple...did the offerings come from nothing? Clearly not. This is בָּרָא.

6- The Hebrew use of the word that describes how these "gods" are made is יָצַר or yāṣar and it specifically refers to idols that are made by men -- "no god formed" yasar is the "form" word. It refers to the way that potters arrange clay to make idols. It is not talking about "beings," nor about the children of God. It's talking about idols made by the hands of men as a potter arranges clay. If you insist that that's not the meaning, what the Hebrew means by "before me" is the meaning "greater than me." It's not an exclusionary phrase is a comparative phrase that means no god was formed to be greater than Christ or Jehovah, for "beside Him, there is no Savior," or goel or redeemer, or kinsman. Good stuff here.

7- The gates of hell are not prevailing against us. We are building temples all over the earth. Fulfilling the statements made by prophets in the 1800s who said that "temples would dot the earth." This is being fulfilled before my eyes and yours.

8- Both men and the Bible are fallible. There are errors in the translations. I just read in 1 Sam 1 the KJV says that Hannah's husband gave her a "double" portion but the Hebrew word is the the word for "one." There is no word for double in that verse. I can see what the translators were doing, but it doesn't fit the Hebrew. Nor does the Hebrew and the greek septuigant mix very well. If you're going to post questions like this, you need to be going to the original sources to know what you're talking about. You'll find that the original Hebrew doesn't mix with the influence of greek philosophy that is all over the creeds.

9 - We can't pay for salvation, can't pay a fraction. Jesus paid all. But salvation is of faith is it not? Because whatsoever is not of faith is sin - Romans 14:23. And faith without works is dead, so must we not bring forth works of faith in righteousness? Romans 10:6. Salvation is free in the sense that we can't pay for it, Jesus pays all, but with us all as in the case of Abraham, the Lord requires that we do what he says. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Keep reading that chapter if you need more...we are expected by the Lord to build solid houses of faith by our works to do what He requires of us, just like Abraham did. This doctrine is everywhere in the OT, NT, and BoM. everywhere.

10- I am the Lord, I change not. But men on the earth change like the weather. The statement was made to mortals who live in a mortal world. It was not made as a comprehensive statement that includes all the eternities that ever existed. Jesus himself grew from grace to grace. You can too, but you have to open your mind to these things. I know for myself that Jesus is the Lord, the God of our salvation sent here by His Father to conquer satan that we might be saved from our sins. I know that He lives. I am certain of this. I also know that He will compel no man to believe in His restored Church that has born his name from the beginning. Know this, that ev’ry soul is free To choose his life and what he’ll be; For this eternal truth is giv’n: That God will force no man to heav’n. He’ll call, persuade, direct aright, And bless with wisdom, love, and light, In nameless ways be good and kind, But never force the human mind.