Monday, November 25, 2024

Exchange on X: First Vision, etc.

This post from Nov 2023 generated a wide-ranging discussion that represents many alternative interpretations you can see at the link.

https://x.com/jonathanaplumb/status/1728410778045390940


It only takes a little bit of diligent searching to dispel all anti-LDS rhetoric. I hope you take the time to read what I have to say, because I have fully investigated these things, and you can find sources corroborating what I say, if you but take a moment to know for yourself. There's a reason the Church says to stay far away from anti-LDS rhetoric. It's not because the Church is trying to hide anything, but because enemies of the Church twist the facts to destroy the truth and destroy testimonies, and only a person who has a solid foundation and a clear understanding of the history of the Church can see through the deceptions. If you don't have that sure foundation, you will fall. Not "might" — will. Anti-LDS rhetoric is especially good at filling in gaps in the record with what they want you to believe happened, and with no record to prove what they're saying false, many are led astray thereby. It's the perfect example of "conspiracy theories" — which are so dangerous because they latch onto the gaps to create their own story that cannot be proven false, whether true or not. And because of the scientific principle of falsifiability, the fact that they can't be proven false gives them credibility... I have two daughters that fell because they both heard some of the easily-proven-false rhetoric spread by friends in public schools. And as both of them grew outside of the gospel, they both eventually discovered that the things that had led them astray earlier in their lives were lies. And all it took was for them to actually research it themselves. Now, to your points. 1. Multiple accounts of the First Vision Joseph Smith shared and documented the First Vision on multiple occasions, resulting in several different accounts. Some have argued that the differences in these accounts indicate changes or embellishments in the story over time, while others see these variations as reflecting different perspectives or emphases rather than contradictions. Example: I often tell a story of when I was in Iraq and an invisible entity stopped be from getting shot in the face. Sometimes when I tell the story I emphasize that I was all alone in the intersection despite thinking my commander was the one who pulled me out of danger; sometimes I emphasize the fact that I had the shooter dead-to-rights in my crosshairs and watched the bullet curve in the air and miss, making me believe that it wasn't his nor my day to die. Sometimes I don't even mention my firing on the shooter and only tell the part of an invisible angel saving my life. It just depends on who I'm talking to and why I'm telling the story. I have yet to find any conflicting aspects of the various accounts, but find each to enlighten me a little more of what actually happened. It's the same reason I read every sacred text of every religion, because I believe each one gives one more piece of the greater truth. While this may be enough for some to dispute Joseph's divinity, as a historian I can't take the same stance but must consider each account as further evidence of the truth. 2. Joe hiding marriages from Emma This is a perfect example of creating a narrative where there is no record and making you believe it. We don't have any primary evidence that confirms Joseph kept anything from Emma. Here's what we know: - Plural marriage was well-known and spreading in Nauvoo by mid-1843. - Joseph's first plural marriage was to Fanny Alger, which we don't have a definitive date for but was likely late 1835 or early 1836. - It is alleged Emma didn't know initially and expelled Fanny from their home in either later 1835 or early 1836. Some claim she expelled Fanny over trivial disagreements, while others claim it's because she "discovered" the marriage. But there is no primary source that knows this for certain. It's all hearsay written years later. Hearsay. * The first known hearsay account was in January 1838, when Oliver Cowdery wrote a private letter where he said the situation with Fanny was a "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape ["affair" overwritten, possibly by someone later]" showing his well-documented opposition to the idea of plural marriages. He alleged Joseph was engaging in sexual relations with Fanny despite everyone denying it. Fanny herself never confirmed it but said it was none of anyone else's business (which is also true). Keep in mine, Oliver had been struggling with the Church for years, especially over Joseph's economic and political programs. His seething comments about Joseph and the Church led to his excommunication in April 1838. (It should be noted that even after excommunication, Oliver never retracted his Three-Witness testimony, and he was re-baptized in 1848). * Decades later, in 1872, William McLellin (who was also excommunicated in 1838 and despised the Church) recounted an incident where Emma discovered Joseph and Fanny alone in a barn. He claimed Emma observed sexual relations through a crack in the barn door. However, Emma never made such a claim, and this is a perfect example of filling in gaps in the record where none exists and making you believe it. * Wilhelm Wyl reported in the 1880s that Emma was furious upon discovering the relationship and drove Fanny out of her house due to the inability to conceal the consequences of her "celestial relation" with Joseph. Again, this is 100% hearsay, adding details to the record where none exists. I hope I have sufficiently debunked the claims that Joseph did anything wrong. Now, I'm not asserting he was entirely innocent of all things. He was mortal and had his own weaknesses and challenges, but as Fanny made clear, that's none of our business. Even a prophet sins, as well-documented in scripture. And so, even if the allegations of sexual relations and the feud with Emma are 100% true, does that mean that Joseph wasn't a prophet or does it mean he made a mortal mistake? I lean toward the latter, but that's something you have to decide on your own. 3. Joe marrying a 14-year old It's important to differentiate between "marriage" and "sealing." Polygamy, in the LDS context, wasn't about marriage but was about sealing. Also, most people don't understand this, but polygamy was only meant to be a temporary doctrine to strengthen the foundation of the Church. It was already on the chopping block when the government said we had to abandon it to join the US, which is why the Church had no problems abandoning it. Joseph was sealed to Helen Mar Kimball when she was 14. While you mention only this account, it should be noted that Joseph was sealed to 7 women under the age of 18 over the years. However, here's where the anti-LDS rhetoric fills in gaps in the record, alleging Joseph must have had sexual relations because they were "married" (again, marriage isn't the same as sealing). It should be noted that at this point in history, there was no legal age for marriage, and it wasn't uncommon for men to marry minors (outside of the Church), and there are plenty of well-documented cases of men marrying women as young as 10. But don't bring this up to the critics...they hate true history. (Don't interpret this as me saying it was common...my words are "it was not uncommon"). According to Helen's own journals, she was initially shocked by the proposal of plural sealings, which she described as having “a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake.” Her father, Heber C. Kimball, introduced the idea to her (not Smith), and after an initial negative reaction, she consented to the sealing, influenced by the promise of ensuring her eternal salvation and that of her family. In other words, this wasn't a sealing arranged by Joseph but arranged by her father, and both her and Joseph agreed to it (a fact most critics overlook). In her 1882 narrative, Helen described how her father broached the subject with her. He first asked her if she would believe him if he said it was right for married men to take other wives. Her initial response was of anger and disbelief, but after her father explained the principle of plural sealings and its reestablishment on Earth, Helen started to consider it more seriously. The following day, Joseph Smith visited their house and further explained the principle, which led Helen to believe in it, relying on the testimonies of her father and Joseph Smith​. It was only at this time that her father suggested the idea of being sealed to Smith. Helen continued to live with her parents after the sealing and was not in a conventional marital relationship with Smith. After Joseph died, 13 months later, she married Horace Whitney, indicating that her sealing to Smith did not preclude her from entering into a temporal marriage with someone else. If you have any other anti-LDS rhetoric you'd like to be destroyed, just let me know. I'm here all day.






Monday, May 16, 2022

Scott Gordon's FAIR tactics - May 16, 2022

LDS apologists presumably seek to bolster and support faith in the Restoration. In many respects, they do an effective job. But many, including those at FAIRLDS, continue to promote the M2C* and SITH** narratives.

Critics of the Restoration and nonbelievers embrace the M2C and SITH narratives because they know they undermine faith. 

Even worse, FAIRLDS, like the rest of the M2C/SITH citation cartel apologists, has long resorted to sarcasm and logical fallacies. Even when they have legitimate points to make, they stumble because of this antagonistic approach, which is largely a legacy of Dan Peterson.

The latest message from Scott Gordon, President of FAIR, is yet another example. We'll look at it below.

The key point that Scott and the rest of the SITH-sayers glide over is this:

Those who experience faith crises are responding to the repudiation of the teachings of the prophets about the translation of the Book of Mormon with the Urim and Thummim, not with the existence/acknowledgement of the SITH accounts which have been publicly available for nearly 200 years.

_____

Here is Scott's latest message to subscribers, in blue, with my annotations in red

'Hidden' History and the Mission of the Church


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is here to lead us to Jesus Christ. That is its mission. Sacrament meeting, Sunday School, and Seminary are all there to help us become better disciples of Jesus Christ and make us more like Him.


So far, so good.

Unfortunately, there are those among us who think The Church has a different purpose. I don’t fault them for this. It is just a misplaced expectation, and we all have many of those. 


A condescending straw man fallacy.


The misplaced expectation is that The Church is there to be a college level history class. 


Literally no one expects this. 


However, there is an expectation that correct history will be taught at Church, given that the basic truth claims are historical in nature, including the resurrection of Christ, the translation (and historicity) of the Book of Mormon, restoration of the Priesthood, etc. 


Yes, it is true that we often use history to teach Gospel topics. 


We don't "often" use history; we always use it because historical truth claims are at the root of everything we teach. If Christ wasn't resurrected, if Joseph didn't translate the plates (and if the Book of Mormon is not actual history), if the Priesthood wasn't restored, etc., there would be no justification for claiming authority to teach Gospel topics.  


Most scriptures and Sunday School lessons contain stories of people and their interactions with the Divine. But the point of the stories is typically what you spiritually learn, and not the detailed history.


It's not "detailed history" that matters; it's literal history. The events occurred or they did not occur. If they did not occur, then no amount of spiritualizing them will make a difference.


Our M2C and SITH scholars have been prying people away from the traditional, and literal, truth claims, transforming them into more of a mystical/mythological experience with "spiritual" meaning instead of literal reality. Hence the faith crises.

Some individuals, who have decided to leave the Church, tell me it is because they believe the Church has betrayed them. It has withheld information and lied to them. 


No doubt some have told Scott that, because it's common knowledge that many Latter-day Saints feel this way. But it's not the Church who lied to them; it's the modern-day scholars such as those at FAIRLDS.


They go on to use an example such as Joseph Smith using a seer stone and a hat as part of the translation process and the Church didn’t tell them. They are concerned that they have been a member for many years and never heard this. The only explanation they can fathom is that the Church lied and hid this from them. The feelings of betrayal are real, but there is a problem with this narrative.


The problem with this narrative is not what Scott pretends here. The problem is that from the earliest days, say September 1829, the SITH narrative has been promoted by media and various individuals. SITH was mocked in the 1834 book Mormonism Unvailed. That's why Oliver and Joseph wrote the 8 formal essays on Church history, explaining that Joseph translated the plates with the Urim and Thummim. Joseph and Oliver reaffirmed that later as well. 


Church leaders reaffirmed that position ever since. But lately, FAIRLDS and like-minded scholars have revived SITH, to the point where they now say Joseph and Oliver deliberately misled everyone when they declared that Joseph translated the plates with the Nephite interpreters. 

Let’s use this specific concern as a broad example of these kinds of "hidden-history" questions. Joseph Smith himself didn’t describe the translation process other than to say it was through the gift and power of God. 


That's an outright lie by omission. Joseph (and Oliver) said Joseph translated with the Urim and Thummim that Moroni provided with the plates; i.e., the Nephite interpreters. Joseph said he translated the characters on the plates. The Lord told him to translate the engravings on the plates. Never did the Lord, or Joseph, or Oliver state, suggest, or imply that Joseph merely read words off a seer stone he found in a well.


From eyewitnesses to the translation process we know that Joseph probably used more than one method. 


The obvious fallacy here is that eyewitnesses could not read Joseph's mind. Assuming they accurately reported what they observed (and their accounts are vague and variable), they could not know whether what they observed was a translation or something else. Scott and other SITH-sayers simply assume the eyewitnesses could read Joseph's mind.


Oliver was the only one other than Joseph ever authorized to translate, and he explained that Joseph translated the plates by means of the Urim and Thummim. Thus, whatever the eyewitnesses claimed to observe with SITH, it could not have been the translation because neither the plates nor the Urim and Thummim were present. 


Furthermore, not one of the SITH witnesses left an account of what Joseph actually dictated when they claim they saw him put his face in a hat. Assuming they accurately reported what they observed, no one knows what Joseph dictated on these occasions. Thus, there is no chain of custody between what they said they observed and the text we have today. 


While it may be the 'hat method' wasn’t taught in Sunday School, as we already discussed, teaching history isn’t really the purpose of Sunday School.


Scott uses misdirection here. Teaching history is specifically a purpose of Sunday School, which has multiple purposes. If not for the historical truth claims, there is no basis for accepting the Restoration. We necessarily teach history in Sunday School because the historical truth claims are the basis for our religion, just as the truth claims in the Bible are for all Christianity. 

But where did the Church hide the idea of seer stones and a hat? It had to be somewhere because people are finding out about it. Who leaked it? What secret archive did it come from? What happened to the whistle blower?


Scott resorts to silly rhetoric here. SITH has been in the public record since 1829. No whistleblower was ever needed. The Church never hid it; instead, Church leaders directly addressed SITH by emphasizing and testifying instead that Joseph translated the plates with the Urim and Thummim.


One book, which is often referenced by the former Latter-day Saint community, claims the information can be found "in an obscure 1992 talk given by Elder Russell M. Nelson." WOW! Russell M. Nelson leaked it! And 
they still made him president? 


Here's more ridiculous sarcasm. No one said or implied that Elder Nelson "leaked" anything in that talk. 


Where can that "obscure 1992 talk" be found? Who did he leak it to? Well, it turns out that "obscure 1992 talk" can be found in the July 1993 Ensign. Who knew that the Church magazine department was in on the conspiracy! 


Still more ridiculous sarcasm. All Elder Nelson did was refer to well-known statements that the Church never hid. Besides, in that article he did not say Joseph translated with SITH instead of the Urim and Thummim anyway. After quoting part of what Oliver Cowdery wrote, he simply quoted well-known statements by David Whitmer and Emma Smith after explaining, "The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights." This is far from the claim by modern scholars (such as those writing for FAIR) that Joseph didn't even use the plates or the Urim and Thummim.


If you don’t keep old Ensign magazines around the house, you can still read this "obscure 1992 talk" on the Church’s website. Is the Webmaster in on this conspiracy too? 


That is just more ridiculous sarcasm.


But there is more. That wasn’t the earliest leak! You can also find it in a September 1977 Ensign article by Richard Lloyd Anderson. Additionally, there is even a description of the seer stone in the September 1977 Friend, the Church magazine for children.


Contrary to Scott's implication, Anderson's article affirms the explanation given by Joseph and Oliver: "Referring to a particular page while mentioning the right-left script throughout “the whole” shows that the Prophet claimed knowledge of the plates themselves, not merely a vision of individual characters in the stone interpreters." 


The short article in the September 1974 Friend (not 1977) mentions the Urim and Thummum, and then inserts this sentence: "Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone... Even with the help of the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone, it wasn’t easy to translate the sacred record." Again, this is far from what the modern SITH-sayers claim. 


When I have brought this up before, I have been accused of victim blaming and gaslighting. I’m not trying to do that. I am not blaming anyone. But I am pointing out that this history is not hidden. 


Compared with the numerous affirmations in General Conference and Church curriculum that Joseph translated the plates with the Urim and Thummim, the cited references to the seer stone are definitely isolated, albeit not completely hidden.


But this is a red herring argument. It never was a question of whether this SITH history was "hidden," but whether this SITH history was true. Those who experience faith crises are dealing with the repudiation of the teachings of the prophets about the translation of the plates with the Urim and Thummim, not with the existence of the SITH accounts.


I only gave a few of many references. There are history associations, publications, and independent researchers that have talked about this for years. We have a FAIR Conference talk on it, and you can watch the video that was put out by the Church History Department.


The "New Mormon history" is not problematic because it relates well-known historical sources. It is problematic because it validates those sources while repudiating the teachings of the prophets. It's the same for the New York Cumorah (M2C) as it is for SITH. 

I don’t blame my accounting students for not understanding the chemical processes of photosynthesis. Neither do I blame the biology students for not understanding accounting. It is simply a matter of what area of study they have chosen to emphasize.


This is a ridiculous argument. We are dealing here with the basic truth claims of the restoration, not unrelated academic specialties. 

We, as a Church, have decided to emphasize studying how to become more like Jesus Christ.


This is more misdirection. We are only a Church because of the truth claims. Given those truth claims, we definitely should focus on becoming more like Christ. But when our scholars are repudiating the truth claims, they are removing the keystone of our religion. 


Our M2C/SITH scholars (including FAIR) recognize that most Latter-day Saints resist their efforts to repudiate the basic truth claims. The scholars have been working on this for decades, starting with repudiating the New York Cumorah. 


Regarding SITH, they used the "New Mormon history" to further undermine the credibility of Joseph and Oliver. Latter-day Saints have good reason to question what these scholars hae been doing. 


Everyone agrees that we should focus on becoming more like Christ the same way other Christians do. But they are undermining the reasons for faith in the Restoration. Hence the faith crisis among Latter-day Saints. 


The opportunity is there for anyone to also study Church history in greater detail, and the Church is continually working to make that task easier.

Except the apologists such as Scott Gordon continue to make that task more difficult by resorting to logical fallacies, censorship, and repudiation of the teachings of the prophets. 

Scott Gordon
President, FAIR

_____


*The acronym M2C stands for the "Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs" theory that claims the "real" Cumorah of Mormon 6:6 is in southern Mexico, while the "hill in New York" where Joseph found the plates was incorrectly named Cumorah because some early Latter-day Saints created a false tradition that Joseph Smith eventually adopted. This is taught by the members of the M2C citation cartel, including FAIR, Book of Mormon Central, the Interpreter, etc. 


**The acronym SITH stands for the "stone-in-the-hat" theory that Joseph Smith never really translated the plates but instead merely read words that "appeared" on a seer stone he put into a hat. SITH proponents claim Joseph didn't even use the plates. Some say Joseph and Oliver deliberately misled everyone by claiming Joseph translated the plates with the Nephite interpreters called the Urim and Thummim. Others say Joseph and Oliver were actually referring to the seer stone when they referred to the Urim and Thummim. 

Exchange on X: First Vision, etc.

This post from Nov 2023 generated a wide-ranging discussion that represents many alternative interpretations you can see at the link. https:...